February 26, 2013

[GoJetsGo]

TOR 2 - DAL 4
Shots: 31-20 DAL
PP: TOR - 1/7; DAL - 1/4

11:53 0-1 DAL James Neal [9] (Matt Niskanen, Kevin Bieksa)
13:12 0-2 DAL Mike Ribeiro [9] (Paul Dejersey, Shaone Morrisonn)PP
14:55 1-2 TOR Maximilien Le Sieur [1] (Chad Kolarik, Keith Yandle)
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20:58 2-2 TOR Taylor Hall [20] (Alexander Semin, Stanislav Galiev)PP
34:01 2-3 DAL Mikael Salmivirta [11] (Paul Dejersey, Scott Gomez)
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58:47 2-4 DAL Mikael Salmivirta [12] (Joel Ward) EN
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Three stars:
1st: Mikael Salmivirta
2nd: James Neal
3rd: Mike Ribeiro

Farm result: Toronto 8 - Texas 5

NYI 4 - STL 3 (SO)
Shots: 30-19 STL
PP: NYI - 1/4; STL - 1/8

04:34 1-0 NYI Rick Nash [30] (Brandon Dubinsky, Alex Goligoski)PP
10:08 1-1 STL Dmitry Kulikov [7] (Erik Johnson, Brayden Schenn)
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22:18 1-2 STL Marian Gaborik [28] (John McFarland, Martin St. Louis)PP
34:11 1-3 STL John McFarland [22] (Marian Gaborik, Dan Hamhuis)
37:57 2-3 NYI Rick Nash [31] (Jonathan Tavares, Maxime Talbot)
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59:35 3-3 NYI Brandon Dubinsky [27] (Jonathan Tavares) WG
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Shootout
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New York Islanders win 3-1
New York Islanders - Rick Nash, goal; Alex Kovalev, goal; Jonathan Tavares, goal;

St. Louis Blues - Marian Gaborik, miss; Ryan Spooner, goal;

Three stars:
1st: Rick Nash
2nd: John McFarland
3rd: Marian Gaborik

Farm result: Bridgeport 6 - Peoria 2

NYR 2 - NJ 4
Shots: 32-16 NJ
PP: NYR - 0/2; NJ - 1/7

08:36 0-1 NJ Patrice Cormier [2] (Nick Palmieri)
12:31 0-2 NJ Ilya Kovalchuk [36] (Steven Stamkos, Tyler Cuma)PP
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39:45 1-2 NYR Anton Lander [1] (Dane Byers, Matt Smaby)
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45:49 2-2 NYR Ryan McDonagh [6] (Pierre-Marc Bouchard, Dane Byers)
48:41 2-3 NJ Samuel Påhlsson [4] (James Wright)
59:57 2-4 NJ Ilya Kovalchuk [37] (Kris Letang, Evgeni Malkin) EN
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Three stars:
1st: Ilya Kovalchuk
2nd: Patrice Cormier
3rd: Samuel Pahlsson

Farm result: Connecticut 3 - Albany 1

WSH 4 - COL 0
Shots: 36-16 WSH
PP: WSH - 0/4; COL - 0/3

16:19 1-0 WSH Phillip Di Giuseppe [9] (Karl Alzner, Cam Barker)
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26:47 2-0 WSH Taylor Pyatt [8] (Brian Lashoff, Karl Alzner)
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43:16 3-0 WSH Mike Fisher [12] (Jarret Stoll, Gregory Hofmann)
50:01 4-0 WSH Olli Jokinen [22] (Andrei Markov, Cam Barker)
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Three stars:
1st: Simeon Varlamov
2nd: Karl Alzner
3rd: Cam Barker

Farm result: Hershey 2 - Lake Erie 5

CAR 2 - BOS 3
Shots: 33-14 BOS
PP: CAR - 0/4; BOS - 0/6

13:49 0-1 BOS Greg Nemisz [7] (Denis Grebeshkov, Riley Sheahan)SH
15:45 0-2 BOS Greg Nemisz [8] (Steve Bernier, Dustin Boyd)
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no scoring
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48:12 0-3 BOS Dustin Boyd [5] (Riley Sheahan, Chuck Kobasew)
50:18 1-3 CAR Teemu Pulkkinen [9] (Tim Gleason)
52:23 2-3 CAR Zach Boychuk [15] (Brandon Sutter)
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Three stars:
1st: Greg Nemisz
2nd: Dustin Boyd
3rd: Riley Sheahan

Farm result: Charlotte 1 - Providence 2

TB 3 - BUF 1
Shots: 24-18 TB
PP: TB - 0/4; BUF - 1/3

11:09 0-1 BUF Zack Kassian [17] (Derek Roy, Mike Weber)PP
17:44 1-1 TB Zach Budish [19] (Tyler Seguin, Cam Fowler)
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34:49 2-1 TB Zach Budish [20] (Dalton Smith, Patrik Nemeth)
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59:05 3-1 TB Rene Bourque [7] (Chris Vande Velde, Jeff Halpern) EN
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Three stars:
1st: Zach Budish
2nd: Rene Bourque
3rd: Patrik Nemeth

Farm result: Syracuse 2 - Rochester 1

FLA 4 - PIT 5 (SO)
Shots: 40-31 PIT
PP: FLA - 0/4; PIT - 3/9

no scoring
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21:47 1-0 FLA Anton Gustafsson [14] (Loui Eriksson, Chris Drury)
29:55 2-0 FLA Brandon Archibald [4] (Drew Shore)
30:23 2-1 PIT David Clarkson [7] (Peter Holland, Cody McLeod)
33:32 2-2 PIT Jarome Iginla [14] (Ian White, Brad Stuart)PP
36:52 2-3 PIT James van Riemsdyk [20] (Peter Holland, Cody Hodgson)PP
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43:55 3-3 FLA Paul Kariya [21] (Brock Nelson, Paul Martin)
45:44 3-4 PIT Anze Kopitar [29] (Jarome Iginla, Zdeno Chara)PP
49:48 4-4 FLA Paul Kariya [22] (Brock Nelson, Connor Brickley)
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Shootout
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Pittsburgh Penguins win 2-0
Florida Panthers - Mikael Granlund, miss; Stephen Weiss, miss;

Pittsburgh Penguins - Jarome Iginla, goal; Cody Hodgson, goal;

Three stars:
1st: Paul Kariya
2nd: James van Riemsdyk
3rd: Jarome Iginla

Farm result: San Antonio 1 - Wilkes-Barre 2

NSH 4 - EDM 3 (OT)
Shots: 29-27 EDM
PP: NSH - 1/4; EDM - 0/5

14:17 1-0 NSH Drew Miller [9] (Jean-Pierre Dumont, Ryan Ellis)
18:59 1-1 EDM Greg McKegg [10] (Mirko Hoefflin, Chris Summers)
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28:51 1-2 EDM Tomas Plekanec [10] (Ryan Smyth, Sven Baertschi)
31:06 1-3 EDM Riley Nash [5] (Mirko Hoefflin, José Theodore)
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43:12 2-3 NSH Simon Gagné [32] (Colin Wilson, Jean-Pierre Dumont)PP
58:47 3-3 NSH Colin Wilson [18] (Simon Gagné, Ryan Suter) WG
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60:21 4-3 NSH Martin Erat [23] (Steven Shipley, Jonathon Blum)

Three stars:
1st: J.P. Dumont
2nd: Colin Wilson
3rd: Simon Gagne

Farm result: Milwaukee 8 - Oklahoma City 2

MIN 1 - CGY 3
Shots: 32-18 CGY
PP: MIN - 0/6; CGY - 2/6

10:51 1-0 MIN Kirill Kabanov [24] (Alexei Marchenko, Marco Scandella)
15:55 1-1 CGY Phil Kessel [27] (David Krejci)
16:19 1-2 CGY Scott Niedermayer [12] (Nikita Filatov, Phil Kessel)PP
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30:42 1-3 CGY David Krejci [18] (Phil Kessel, Nikita Filatov)PP
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no scoring
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Three stars:
1st: Phil Kessel
2nd: David Krejci
3rd: Nikita Filatov

Farm result: Houston 4 - Abbotsford 4

VAN 3 - PHX 4 (OT)
Shots: 24-14 PHX
PP: VAN - 1/5; PHX - 0/3

05:49 0-1 PHX Brett Connolly [16] (Shane Doan, Ilya Bryzgalov)
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31:17 0-2 PHX Boyd Gordon [1] (Oliver Ekman-Larsson, Erik Gudbranson)
32:09 1-2 VAN Jordan Schroeder [11] (Mathieu Roy, Shane O'Brien)
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41:02 2-2 VAN Rasmus Bengtsson [3] (Stéphane Robidas, Chris Kelly)
48:27 2-3 PHX Ed Jovanovski [6] (Lauri Korpikoski)
49:46 3-3 VAN Henrik Sedin [22] (Brenden Morrow, Mike Cammalleri)PP
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60:23 3-4 PHX Mikkel Boedker [32] (Brett Connolly, Oliver Ekman-Larsson)

Three stars:
1st: Brett Connolly
2nd: Shane Doan
3rd: Boyd Gordon

Farm result: Chicago 0 - Portland 2

SJ 0 - WPG 1 (SO)
Shots: 17-14 SJ
PP: SJ - 0/2; WPG - 0/0

no scoring
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no scoring
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no scoring
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Shootout
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Winnipeg Jets win 5-4
San Jose Sharks - Alexander Radulov, miss; Ryan Getzlaf, goal; Dany Heatley, goal; Jaden Schwartz, goal; Ryane Clowe, goal; Derek Forbort, miss; Lee Stempniak, miss; Oscar Klefbom, miss; Erik Cole, miss;

Winnipeg Jets - Brad Boyes, miss; Artem Anisimov, goal; Patrice Bergeron, goal; Martin Havlat, goal; Sean Couturier, goal; Jonathan Huberdeau, miss; Raffi Torres, miss; Logan Couture, miss; Alec Martinez, goal;

Three stars:
1st: Jack Campbell
2nd: Niklas Backstrom
3rd: Dainius Zubrus

Farm result: Worcester 7 - St. John's 2

[Parker]

Take THAT, Western Canada.

Not exactly Bryzgalol's finest hour, but as usual lately he wasn't quite bad enough to cost us the game.

[Jungle Cats]

[GoJetsGo]

New Jersey begins to right the ship with a victory at MSG, howevah, (Stephen A. Smith voice) it comes in tandem with a Pittsburgh shootout win. Quinn calls his shot, receiving his guaranteed back-to-back road loss. Boston banks an imperative set of points in Carolina, keeping pace with Winnipeg and Tampa Bay. Calgary and Phoenix avoid nasty surprises.

http://www.ehechockey.com/EHEC.zip

http://www.ehechockey.com/calendar.html

[TorontoGM]

Fuck, this month was looking pretty decent for us until tonight.

[Parker]

14:55 1-2 TOR Maximilien Le Sieur [1] (Chad Kolarik, Keith Yandle)

All Coyotes, all the time.

[SharksGM]

SJ Challenges:6/54=10 %
WPG Challenges:5/59=8 %

The fuck, Tommy?

[TorontoGM]

100+ giveaways combined, the fuck indeed.

[Devils_GM]

Very happy to be back on the winners list, but seriously how many close wins can Pittsburgh have??

Seriously check out Pittsburgh's games since the all star break.

Vs NYI 3-1
Vs NYR 4-2
Vs OTT 4-3
Vs NJ 2-1(SO)
Vs MTL 4-3(SO)
Vs LA 4-1
Vs PHI 3-1
Vs WPG 5-3
Vs BUF 4-3(OT)
Vs CAR 4-3
Vs PHI 3-2
Vs MTL 4-3(OT)
Vs TB 2-3
Vs FLA 5-4(SO)

That is just crazy 3 shootout wins, 2 other overtime wins and yet another four one goal games with only one being a loss. Just amazing really

[Penguin]

Very happy to be back on the winners list, but seriously how many close wins can Pittsburgh have??

[Jungle Cats]

see also;

Anaheim (6/42) v. Phoenix (1/56) on the 2nd
New Jersey (2/46) v. Pittsburgh (17/54) on the 5th
Winnipeg (13/33) v. Phoenix (11/45) on the 11th
Tampa (13/30) v. Toronto (6/49) on the 19th
Calgary (0/44!) v. LA (14/73) on the 20th
Calgary (7/41) v. Phoenix (19/57) on the 24th

and I'm kinda weirded out by this. Anyone?

[Commish Bub(NYR)]

see also;

Anaheim (6/42) v. Phoenix (1/56) on the 2nd
New Jersey (2/46) v. Pittsburgh (17/54) on the 5th
Winnipeg (13/33) v. Phoenix (11/45) on the 11th
Tampa (13/30) v. Toronto (6/49) on the 19th
Calgary (0/44!) v. LA (14/73) on the 20th
Calgary (7/41) v. Phoenix (19/57) on the 24th

and I'm kinda weirded out by this. Anyone?

I'm kinda weirded out by your amount of scoresheet stalking.

[Parker]

I'm curious to see whether Phoenix or Colorado can finish out the season without an overtime loss. Boedker didn't waste any time making sure we kept the streak going last night. Maybe Bryzgalol is the NHL version of Jack Morris - he might have less-than-stellar individual stats, but He Knows How To WIn.

[Femur]

Maybe Bryzgalol is the NHL version of Jack Morris - he might have less-than-stellar individual stats, but He Knows How To WIn.

god i hated Jack Morris. not only did he annoy me to no end in DET, but he ended his career here in Cleveland where he basically just took our money, and went back to his farm on off days.

[Parker]

god i hated Jack Morris. not only did he annoy me to no end in DET, but he ended his career here in Cleveland where he basically just took our money, and went back to his farm on off days.

Yeah I hated him so bad when he played for Detroit, then Toronto signed him as a free agent and it felt like Hitler changed sides and came to fight for the Allies. God I hated seeing him in a Jays uniform. He wasn't even that good for Toronto but the idiot sportswiriters still made him 5th in the Cy Young voting that year.

The retard sportswriters talk about how he won more games than anyone else in the 80's, but he also gave up more hits and more earned runs than anyone in that decade too. He wasn't good, he just pitched a lot of innings for competitive teams. Even that crap about him "pitching to the score" has been proven wrong, but the writers STILL trot it out when trying to defend his mediocre numbers.

At least Blyleven got into the HoF, and Morris is still on the outside looking in. That shows they're making progress, anyway. Now if they could just vote in Lou Whitaker, I might stop hating them. Yeah I know, Sweet Lou played for the enemy, but goddamn was he ever awesome. He was the player I wanted to be when I played Little League. Trammell should be in there too.

[Femur]

Now if they could just vote in Lou Whitaker, I might stop hating them. Yeah I know, Sweet Lou played for the enemy, but goddamn was he ever awesome. He was the player I wanted to be when I played Little League. Trammell should be in there too.

Lou Whitaker!

good stuff all around and agree with all. i would love to see Julio "The Snake" Franco in there for nostalgia, but it is a stretch. Trammell and Biggio are the two guys who should absolutely be in there without argument from any.

[Virtual Jarmo]

Trammell and Biggio are the two guys who should absolutely be in there without argument from any.

Biggio for sure. Only guys with 3,000 hits not in the Hall are Rafael Palmiero and Pete Rose, and we all know why they aren't. Well, and Derek Jeter, but he's still playing.

[CapsGM]

[GM Office Q]

[GoJetsGo]

I'm no Kübler-Ross, but I know an acceptance phase when I see it.

[Montreal Canadiens]

WSH's EHM generated slump can start anytime........

[CapsGM]

WSH's EHM generated slump can start anytime........

[Virtual Jarmo]

WSH's EHM generated slump can start anytime........

It'll happen to somebody again soon. Not even sure I've snapped out of mine. Parker finally got out of his.

[Commish Bub(NYR)]

god i hated Jack Morris. not only did he annoy me to no end in DET, but he ended his career here in Cleveland where he basically just took our money, and went back to his farm on off days.

Yeah I hated him so bad when he played for Detroit, then Toronto signed him as a free agent and it felt like Hitler changed sides and came to fight for the Allies. God I hated seeing him in a Jays uniform. He wasn't even that good for Toronto but the idiot sportswiriters still made him 5th in the Cy Young voting that year.

The retard sportswriters talk about how he won more games than anyone else in the 80's, but he also gave up more hits and more earned runs than anyone in that decade too. He wasn't good, he just pitched a lot of innings for competitive teams. Even that crap about him "pitching to the score" has been proven wrong, but the writers STILL trot it out when trying to defend his mediocre numbers.

At least Blyleven got into the HoF, and Morris is still on the outside looking in. That shows they're making progress, anyway. Now if they could just vote in Lou Whitaker, I might stop hating them. Yeah I know, Sweet Lou played for the enemy, but goddamn was he ever awesome. He was the player I wanted to be when I played Little League. Trammell should be in there too.

Morris is a prime example of how traditional pitching stats don't really reflect a pitcher's true effectiveness. You hit it on the head: he won a lot of games because he stayed healthy and played for good teams. (So in that case, vote in "old-timer" Jim Kaat, who won 285 games.) PLUS the same sports writers use the arguments you/I made against Morris to argue against the HOF 300-game winners like Niekro, Perry, and Sutton.

[Virtual Jarmo]

Morris is a prime example of how traditional pitching stats don't really reflect a pitcher's true effectiveness.

Uh oh. Are we about to get into a sabermetrics discussion? Because I'd love that.

[Commish Bub(NYR)]

Morris is a prime example of how traditional pitching stats don't really reflect a pitcher's true effectiveness.

Uh oh. Are we about to get into a sabermetrics discussion? Because I'd love that.

Let's do it. I'm not a balls-out expert, and I'll have to brush up on VORP and UZR. But I'd much rather discuss that than the tripe most sports writers try pulling, esp during HOF voting.

[Virtual Jarmo]

Let's do it. I'm not a balls-out expert, and I'll have to brush up on VORP and UZR. But I'd much rather discuss that than the tripe most sports writers try pulling, esp during HOF voting.

Regarding Morris, it's really hard to accurately gauge his value from a sabermetric standpoint. His career K/9 would have been above average during his time. His BB/9 was slightly better than average. Both his ERA and FIP were better than league average in his prime. But, overall, Morris was nothing more than a good pitcher. In my humble opinion, he's not worthy of the Hall of Fame.

He certainly benefited from a good offense and was excellent in the two seasons he won the World Series, but he got 6+ runs of support in 35% of his starts.

Regarding UZR, I'm starting to come around on fielding metrics. I used to think that they were too flawed, but as I've studied the methodology, I've gotten more comfortable with them.

[CapsGM]

WSH's EHM generated slump can start anytime........

It'll happen to somebody again soon. Not even sure I've snapped out of mine. Parker finally got out of his.

Does a 6-9 December count?

[Virtual Jarmo]

WSH's EHM generated slump can start anytime........

It'll happen to somebody again soon. Not even sure I've snapped out of mine. Parker finally got out of his.

Does a 6-9 December count?

Depends how many of those you lost in a row.

[Femur]

...Regarding UZR, I'm starting to come around on fielding metrics. I used to think that they were too flawed, but as I've studied the methodology, I've gotten more comfortable with them.

oh, THAT is the discussion. i am out. i thought we were going to talk about sabremeters in general which i would love to expound upon.

ESPECIALLY Mike Trout, Miggy, Nate Silver. i really can't wait to tell t'all what i think there...

[Commish Bub(NYR)]

Regarding Morris, it's really hard to accurately gauge his value from a sabermetric standpoint. His career K/9 would have been above average during his time. His BB/9 was slightly better than average. Both his ERA and FIP were better than league average in his prime. But, overall, Morris was nothing more than a good pitcher. In my humble opinion, he's not worthy of the Hall of Fame.

He certainly benefited from a good offense and was excellent in the two seasons he won the World Series, but he got 6+ runs of support in 35% of his starts.

Regarding UZR, I'm starting to come around on fielding metrics. I used to think that they were too flawed, but as I've studied the methodology, I've gotten more comfortable with them.

Spot on regarding Morris. He gets "benefit of the doubt" points because he won two Series and won 20+ three times. And yet...Trammell and Whitaker played on those DET teams but don't have sexy numbers -- not power hitters, no MVP awards, etc. Whitaker isn't even on the HOF ballot anymore, and Trammell's never gotten over 36% of the vote.

[Femur]

okay, i never wait to be asked, and i am not about to start now.

Nate Silver doesn't know jack squat about baseball. say what you will about Bill James, but the guy has a passion for baseball and he understands that the numbers merely allow him to better understand what is going on. for Nate Silver (and all his devotees i have heard from), he thinks the numbers ARE what is going and he couldn't be more wrong there.

femur to Nate: just because you don't believe in the traditional triple crown, and have no way of quantifying it, it doesn't mean that it is meaningless. far from it. being the guy who is most likely to create you a run (or winshare or whatfrigginever) is not the same thing as the guy who did it when it was needed. sports (like life...Bob Kostas voice here) is made by what you DO. it is not an accomplishment to have a 5.67 rating at such-n-such. it is an accomplishment to hit a home run in pennant chase that puts you in the lead for the triple crown.

[Virtual Jarmo]

okay, i never wait to be asked, and i am not about to start now.

Nate Silver doesn't know jack squat about baseball. say what you will about Bill James, but the guy has a passion for baseball and he understands that the numbers merely allow him to better understand what is going on. for Nate Silver (and all his devotees i have heard from), he thinks the numbers ARE what is going and he couldn't be more wrong there.

femur to Nate: just because you don't believe in the traditional triple crown, and have no way of quantifying it, it doesn't mean that it is meaningless. far from it. being the guy who is most likely to create you a run (or winshare or whatfrigginever) is not the same thing as the guy who did it when it was needed. sports (like life...Bob Kostas voice here) is made by what you DO. it is not an accomplishment to have a 5.67 rating at such-n-such. it is an accomplishment to hit a home run in pennant chase that puts you in the lead for the triple crown.

I pay no attention to Nate Silver. Not one iota.

FWIW, I didn't care who won the MVP. Either guy was a fine choice with me.

[Femur]

FWIW, I didn't care who won the MVP. Either guy was a fine choice with me.

that's not the point! the MVP race has already been declared by Silvers slits as the old versus the new. you have to take sides. there can be no compromise. they struck first.

also, it is really getting twisted out there on the lunatic fringe of the stats world. anyone heard of SportVU? here is an article: http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670059/mon ... ng-the-nba

i mean, really? do these GMs who think they are being smart realize that 40% of regular season stats (my number, not official) are worthless because the players aren't playing hard? only numbers that matter ifn basketball are playoffs. wonder what it is for hockey?

[Parker]

WSH's EHM generated slump can start anytime........

It'll happen to somebody again soon. Not even sure I've snapped out of mine. Parker finally got out of his.

It's a rebalancing. We couldn't lose at home in the first half of the season. Now we can't fuckin' buy a win at home, but at least we don't suck on the road anymore. The results from that western Canada road trip weren't really all that unexpected; I figured I had a good chance against VAN and EDM... the CGY win surprised me though.

I bet I lose at home to Anaheim though.

[Parker]

Morris is a prime example of how traditional pitching stats don't really reflect a pitcher's true effectiveness. You hit it on the head: he won a lot of games because he stayed healthy and played for good teams. (So in that case, vote in "old-timer" Jim Kaat, who won 285 games.) PLUS the same sports writers use the arguments you/I made against Morris to argue against the HOF 300-game winners like Niekro, Perry, and Sutton.

I think the common theme with Kaat, Niekro, Perry, and Sutton is that they had awesome peak years, but their overall career numbers were dragged down by some below-average performances towards the ends of their careers. They basically stuck around longer than they needed to, but a guy who's getting close to 300 wins always get the benefit of the doubt for a while, if only for the promotional value of a pitcher recording his 300th for whatever team he's playing for at that time.

[Parker]

ESPECIALLY Mike Trout, Miggy, Nate Silver. i really can't wait to tell t'all what i think there...

Man, that MVP vote was a fucking disgrace. Some people say that the reason Trout didn't win wasn't even because of traditionalism vs. sabermetrics, but the simple fact that Trout's only 20 and will have another 15 years in the Majors to win these awards, while Cabrera is probably going to start regressing over the next few years.

So it's not the best player who wins, it's the best VETERAN. Rookies can't win because they haven't paid their dues yet.

[Virtual Jarmo]

I think the common theme with Kaat, Niekro, Perry, and Sutton is that they had awesome peak years, but their overall career numbers were dragged down by some below-average performances towards the ends of their careers. They basically stuck around longer than they needed to, but a guy who's getting close to 300 wins always get the benefit of the doubt for a while, if only for the promotional value of a pitcher recording his 300th for whatever team he's playing for at that time.

Regarding Niekro, knuckleballers are such a different breed, with the lack of strain on their arms from throwing that pitch 65+% of the time. When you talk about the game's premier knucklers, it's Niekro and Hoyt Wilhelm. You could throw reported knuckleball creator Eddie Cicotte in there if you want. Wakefield was the best of our generation, but, his stats are not elite. Remember R.A. Dickey's stretch last year and how improbable that was as a knuckleballer? Dickey's a non-traditional knuckler in that his is a little bit harder and one even sits in the high 70s, where Wakefield's career average was 74.1 mph.

I think the idea of a knuckler winning 300 games is extremely impressive, given how reliant they are on their defense to make plays.

Not saying your point is invalid, just pointing out that knucklers are in a category all their own.

The point you bring up about the later years of these guys' careers is a very valid one. These guys were regularly making 37+ starts and throwing 270+ innings. There are very few horses in MLB today that could withstand that type of workload (obviously, regulated to today's 33-34 starts and 220-230 innings) year after year.

[Virtual Jarmo]

ESPECIALLY Mike Trout, Miggy, Nate Silver. i really can't wait to tell t'all what i think there...

Man, that MVP vote was a fucking disgrace. Some people say that the reason Trout didn't win wasn't even because of traditionalism vs. sabermetrics, but the simple fact that Trout's only 20 and will have another 15 years in the Majors to win these awards, while Cabrera is probably going to start regressing over the next few years.

So it's not the best player who wins, it's the best VETERAN. Rookies can't win because they haven't paid their dues yet.

I'm not sure I agree with you. Traditionalism played a huge role because of the Triple Crown, and rightfully so. Batting average and RBI are a little bit archaic, but, I think an achievement like that cannot be discredited, especially when a lot of today's power hitters are low average guys (Dunn, Granderson, etc.). People also respected him for the position change and the fact that he didn't kill the Tigers over there at 3B, which I think is a much more difficult position than CF. We're talking about one of the top 3 right handed hitters of the last 20 years in Cabrera. I'd easily put him up there with Pujols and Ramirez.

I know RBI is a team stat, since it requires the guys in front of you to get on base, so I'm fine with discrediting that stat a little bit, but I truly believe there's a skill to hitting consistently with RISP that gets lost in the shuffle of the RBI hatred from sabrists.

The thing about WAR is how much it factors in defense and speed. The fact that Miggy performed so well offensively that he was even close to Trout, operating at a major disadvantage in both categories, just shows what kind of season he had.

That being said, the question had to be asked of, if Mike Trout is up to start the season, does he win the MVP going away? I mean, we're talking about a kid who may have put up a 12 WAR. The highest single-season WAR since 1900 is Walter Johnson's 15.7 in 1913. The highest for a position player is Babe Ruth's 13.7 in 1923. We're talking about really impressive company.

Like I said, I was fine with either guy winning, because I understood the arguments from both sides. I may be jaded because I see Miggy a lot more since the Tigers and Indians play 18 games a season. But, I don't think it had anything to do with Trout being 20.

[Commish Bub(NYR)]

The point you bring up about the later years of these guys' careers is a very valid one. These guys were regularly making 37+ starts and throwing 270+ innings. There are very few horses in MLB today that could withstand that type of workload (obviously, regulated to today's 33-34 starts and 220-230 innings) year after year.

Interesting last point. Just why is it that no one pitches the starts and innings like they used to? I was away from baseball stats for some time until a couple of years ago, and I was SHOCKED to see just how many pitchers teams now use over the course of a season -- sometimes 25-30 pitchers. Wtf? Look at teams from the 70s and 80s, when I was really following baseball -- even bad teams often went through 12-15 guys in a year. I'd like someone to do a really in-depth study to see if arm injuries were more or less prevalent back then compared to today. I can't believe guys are getting worse instruction, and they're certainly stronger and fitter than guys 20, 30, 40 years ago. What gives?

To keep this going -- when I hear talk about unbreakable baseball records, people usually bring up Dimaggio's hit streak, or maybe Ripken's game streak. But to me the real unbreakable record is Walter Johnson's 110 shutouts. The closest guy on the list that anyone on these boards might have seen pitch is Nolan Ryan, and he ended with 61. Hell, even Clemens only got 46. The pitching is handled today, no way anyone ever gets close to that record. Hell, I don't think anyone's gonna hit 50 ever again.

Oh, and another pretty good knuckler: Wilbur Wood. Dude averaged 45 starts per year from '71 to '75. Not a world beater, but pretty freaking good when he was on, as both a starter and closer.

[Virtual Jarmo]

Interesting last point. Just why is it that no one pitches the starts and innings like they used to? I was away from baseball stats for some time until a couple of years ago, and I was SHOCKED to see just how many pitchers teams now use over the course of a season -- sometimes 25-30 pitchers. Wtf? Look at teams from the 70s and 80s, when I was really following baseball -- even bad teams often went through 12-15 guys in a year. I'd like someone to do a really in-depth study to see if arm injuries were more or less prevalent back then compared to today. I can't believe guys are getting worse instruction, and they're certainly stronger and fitter than guys 20, 30, 40 years ago. What gives?

For starters (no pun intended), the game is so specialized now. Five-man rotations, matchup relievers, so much statistical analysis it'll make your head spin. Better and more informed doctors are making a difference as well. They're detecting more injuries and teams want to protect their investments. How many times do you see a guy go out with a strained oblique that somebody in the 70s would have just pitched through?

Hell, I did a two-part series a few weeks back about the all-Ohio baseball team, with 13 position players and 12 pitchers. One pitcher, Jack Pfeister, way back in 1908, dislocated a tendon in his pitching elbow during the game. He completed a five-hit shutout. He also wound up having to retire at age 33.

I think medical diagnosis makes a big difference nowadays. Think about the concussion problem in the NFL and NHL. We've become better at recognizing them and have a better idea of what the effects are to taking more head trauma while already dealing with a brain injury. Players even as recent as the late '90s-early '00s didn't have that type of care. Arm troubles for pitchers are no different. Guys probably pitched through ulnar collateral ligament (UCL) damage all the time up until Tommy John surgery became such a big deal. Strained rotator cuff? Your arm is just tired. Now? We're shutting you down for the season.

A drop of one mile per hour to your average velocity and statheads are assuming you're hurt. The front office is assuming you're hurt. The babying of pitchers, to be honest, has gone too far. I have an acquaintance whose brother was in my grade school class and he was two years older than us. He runs a baseball training facility in Seattle that developing pitchers and hitters from a physiological standpoint. He builds their velocity, uses strength training programs, etc. He's definitely a non-conformist to baseball's current management of pitchers and their health. Most in the industry would (and have - as he has applied for jobs in the industry) shun him.

Trevor Bauer is an example. The guy I know and Bauer talk often and are both on the same page when it comes to his pre-game regimen and what he does to stay healthy. The Diamondbacks traded Bauer, in part, because they hated what he did to train. He plays 400-foot long toss before he starts. He goes about everything differently. Because he has studied the game and studies how and why pitchers get hurt. He, in some circles, got blacklisted because of it. Because it's not the norm.

Ultimately, the game has evolved so much that pitchers will never accumulate innings or starts the same way they did in the past. It's too specialized now and too much is known about injuries.

And to answer your question, more injuries now, only because of advances in medicine.

To keep this going -- when I hear talk about unbreakable baseball records, people usually bring up Dimaggio's hit streak, or maybe Ripken's game streak. But to me the real unbreakable record is Walter Johnson's 110 shutouts. The closest guy on the list that anyone on these boards might have seen pitch is Nolan Ryan, and he ended with 61. Hell, even Clemens only got 46. The pitching is handled today, no way anyone ever gets close to that record. Hell, I don't think anyone's gonna hit 50 ever again.

Johnny Van Der Meer's back-to-back no hitters probably won't get broken again either. No way Johnson's record gets touched. Cy Young's games started record. There are a lot of records, most of them longevity-based, that will never get touched. Rose's hit record won't be touched.

Oh, and another pretty good knuckler: Wilbur Wood. Dude averaged 45 starts per year from '71 to '75. Not a world beater, but pretty freaking good when he was on, as both a starter and closer.

Definite oversight on my part. Good call.

[Parker]

I think if there's one record that'll never be broken, it's Ted Williams' reaching base safely SIXTEEN straight times. That means basically not making an out for four or five straight games. Even for a guy with the incredible strike zone control and contact ability like Williams (career OBP .482) that's like flipping a coin and having it come up heads sixteen times in a row.

[GM Office Q]

I've seen black on the Roulette wheel 16 straight times. Tim knows what I mean.